All products featured on Bon Appétit are independently selected by our editors. However, we may receive compensation from retailers and/or from purchases of products through these links.
ON THIS WEEK’S episode of Dinner SOS, test kitchen director and host Chris Morocco hands the feed back over to senior test kitchen editors Shilpa Uskokovic and Jesse Szewczyk, who introduce us to the next BA Bake Club recipe: Pistachio Bundt Cake.
It’s an exciting time for pistachios—they’re really having their spotlight moment. What better way to celebrate the nut du jour than to make them the star of this month’s Bake Club recipe. Plus! Shilpa loves cake, so what better time to introduce her incredibly springy, tender, and flavorful Pistachio Bundt Cake recipe!
The cake is made in a blender (what?!) and Jesse quizzes Shilpa on how that works. They talk about the tough choices Shilpa had to make while developing the recipe all the way back in fall 2024: What pan? Which nut? What variety of pistachio? Cream cheese or no cream cheese (always cream cheese regardless of the original question)? Our Bake Clubbers have sent in a few questions for the duo to answer, including best ways to store the cake (on the counter under an inverted bowl so you can have a slice every time you walk by). We all learn of the best way to grease a Bundt pan so your cake always makes it out in one piece. Lastly, Shilpa and Jesse are so honored to have baking legend Rose Levy Berenbaum (a.k.a. Real Baking With Rose), author of the Cake Bible, which just hit its milestone 35th anniversary, on the show. We are big fans of Rose. In response to a listener question about egg substitutes, Rose explains why that may be the hardest workaround of all.
Listen now to hear Jesse and Shilpa talk about this big, beautiful, and very green cake that is the ideal spring bake.
Shilpa Uskokovic: I am Shilpa Uskokovic.
Jesse Szewczyk: And I'm Jesse Szewczyk.
SU: We're both senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appétit.
JS: And this is BA Bake Club.
SU: Bake Club is a Bon Appétit book club, but for baking.
JS: We are creating the nerdiest and most wholesome corner of the baking internet.
SU: Here's how it works. Every month, we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept that we think you should know.
JS: Then you'll bake, send us any questions you have or pictures of your finished creations.
SU: And we'll reconvene here on the podcast to talk about the recipe.
JS: So today we are here to talk about Shilpa's, incredibly springy pistachio Bundt cake.
SU: I am very excited to talk about this recipe, Jesse. First of all, you know how much I love cake.
JS: You do.
SU: I love cake so much. It's my favorite thing to bake. And this particular cake is made almost entirely in a blender, so it's very, very fast and easy. Also, I feel like pistachios are having a bit of a moment.
Speaker 3: The world's gone pistachio crazy. That's why I've made these pistachio millionaires [inaudible 00:01:17].
Speaker 4: You need to start buying cream of pistachio. Let me show you how to make it. It's so easy and-
Speaker 5: Everything I've been making has had pistachios in it. Pistachio pesto, pistachio cake, and most recently, these pistachio Rice Krispie treats.
Speaker 6: Today we're making the viral pistachio chocolate bar. Look at the size of this thing.
JS: They really have been. And we're going to talk all about pistachios and why they make this cake so tender and also such a beautiful color. But first, Shilpa, can you talk broad strokes about your recipe?
SU: Absolutely. Okay. So here's step-by-step how I prep for the recipe. First thing, I grease my Bundt pan, which is a topic for discussion later down the road, and then preheat the oven. And then all the dry ingredients go in the blender first. Put flour, pistachios, salt, baking powder, baking soda. Blitz until it becomes this jade green nut flour in a way and then transfer it to a bowl. And then put the wet ingredients in a blender. That would be eggs, sugar, vanilla extract, a little bit of almond extract, melted butter and oil. And you blitz all of these ingredients until it's emulsified and then you pour the wet ingredients onto the dry ingredients, stir together, pour it into your Bundt pan, and you bake it. And that's it. And the whole thing, once it's cooled, it's topped off with a lemony cream cheese glaze and extra chopped pistachios on top.
JS: Nice. Okay, Shilpa. So there are a handful of things we should talk about for this recipe. First of all, the big one, this cake can be made in a blender.
SU: Yes.
JS: And why is this cake in particular a good cake to do that? Because that's quite a particular method you're using.
SU: Yeah. You don't often see cakes made in a blender or a food processor.
JS: No. It sounds counterintuitive to a lot of cakes. You're creaming to incorporate air into the butter and sugar. So what's going on here?
SU: Yeah, I think this one in particular works so well in the blender because in many ways it's like a pound cake and it's very, very rich from the addition of the pistachios. And what the pistachios are doing is they're really cutting down the amount of gluten that is possibly being formed. And then going back to the whole pound cake texture, because it's a very dense cake and very fine crumbed you don't need the many bubbles that you can get from creaming, for instance. Or you don't need to whip your eggs much. So that's why it works particularly well in the blender.
JS: Because for this, you're going for more of a bit of heft. Like you want a beefy slice.
SU: Yes. Yes. A beefy slice. That's exactly it. Like a muscular-
JS: Yes.
SU: Yeah. Beefy. I love it.
JS: So it uses butter and oil.
SU: It uses butter and oil. And I feel like you do this too, but-
JS: I do.
SU: ... anytime a recipe could be made with melted fat, I like to do a combination of melted butter for the flavor, and then oil for the way oil makes a baked good very, very moist and tender.
JS: Yeah. I like streaming almost just an extra tablespoon oil even into a regular butter cake, just for a little extra moistness.
SU: Oh, really? And do you adjust the butter in that case, or do you just add an extra tablespoon?
JS: No. I just add an extra tablespoon.
SU: Wow. Okay.
JS: Okay. So you said this can be made in a food processor.
SU: Yes.
JS: Does it change anything And is there anything you have to keep an eye out for here?
SU: Actually making it in the food processor is my favorite way of doing it. But in the end, I didn't end up writing that in the recipe because you need a large capacity food processor.
JS: Sure.
SU: You would need to have a 12 to 14 cup one. So I think the food processor works better in a way because there's less risk of over-blending the dry mixture with the nuts
JS: It's spread out and sit in the bottom.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: And the pulsing action of a food processor and the wider bowl shape prevents the pistachio mixture from ever becoming nut butter. And you do run the risk of over-blending the dry ingredients with the nuts if you use a blender.
JS: So with the blender, because there's that risk of it turning into nut butter, how do you know when to stop? Or how do you know if you've gone too far?
SU: I think paying attention. As it's blending, paying attention to color and texture is a good cue. You will know if it's over-mixed or over-blended in a way, if that's even a word, when it starts becoming clumpy. When it starts looking like wet sand, that means you're on the verge of turning this into nut butter. And then also conversely, you will know if it's under-mixed because if it's a very pale, dull green, that means the pistachio hasn't broken up into small enough bits, and there's still large chunks of pistachio. So if it's very pale, your dry ingredients in the blender, I would say blend a little bit further.
And in some ways to counteract the tendency of the pistachios to turn into nut butter in a blender, in the recipe, I actually call for the flour to be added first. So I say, put the flour ... that's the ingredient that touches the blades of the blender first. And then you layer the nuts and the leaveners on top. And that was just to provide a little bit of insurance against the pistachios becoming a paste.
JS: That makes sense. So this is first and foremost a cake made with nuts. So what are the pistachios doing other than obviously giving flavor?
SU: There's a lot of nuts in this cake.
JS: Yeah, you feel it.
SU: Yeah. And you feel it. And also when you look at the ingredients, there's a little bit more nuts than there is flour.
JS: It's cool.
SU: It's a very nut forward cake. And that was very intentional. When I wanted to make a pistachio cake, I really wanted the pistachio flavor to come through because it is a delicate flavor in many ways, and it's difficult to capture that usually. Nuts are fatty. That's the thing. Nuts are very fatty. They contain oils, and by grinding them up and making them into a flour, I think it introduces some of that richness into your cake and that translates into the pound cake texture.
And then I touched on this previously, but I think it warrants repeating that because there's such a high proportion of nuts, it cuts back on the amount of gluten and it makes for tender cake with little risk of over-mixing. What else do the nuts add?
JS: What about color?
SU: Oh yeah.
JS: Oh, yes.
SU: I was like, yes. That is the primary point. It does have a very striking color, the pistachios. And also, I've noticed in my testing, one thing I tested was different varieties of pistachios.
JS: They range from very, very expensive to only somewhat expensive.
SU: Yes. And they made a difference in the final color.
JS: Was the expensive one better?
SU: Actually, no.
JS: No?
SU: Yes. I was really surprised because I thought that would be the case.
JS: And green, green. Yeah.
SU: Yes.
JS: So how did you choose the shape of a Bundt cake? I know that Bundt cakes are notoriously hard to unmold and grease, which we will get into detail later and address some questions, but why was this one better as a Bundt? Because I remember this started out as something else.
SU: Yeah, it started out as a loaf cake.
JS: I remember that. Yeah.
SU: And it was beautiful actually.
JS: It was great.
SU: The loaf cake was nice too. There was some kind of elegance to the minimalist shape.
JS: It was cute.
SU: Yeah, it was nice. And then I remember flipping it over and glazing the top. What would've been the bottom of the loaf cake. I actually don't know why I settled on the Bundt cake. Oh, I think because this cake in many ways was going to be very unadorned. It was the cake. It was not cut and filled and frosted.
JS: Sure.
SU: It was going to be this cake and it was going to have a glaze. And I think the simplicity we felt would translate very well to a Bundt cake, which a Bundt pan, just by the nature of its shape, is a bit more dramatic and made it more stately and majestic.
JS: It felt very of the moment.
SU: Yes, yes. I love a Bundt cake.
JS: I like a Bundt cake too.
SU: A plain cake.
JS: They're easy too. They don't take much effort to gussy up.
SU: Yes, that's true. They're easy to portion.
JS: Yeah.
SU: Also, you know what? Something about a Bundt pan is because of the central tube, Bundt cakes bake more evenly-
JS: They do.
SU: ... Than other round cakes.
JS: Yeah. You don't have to worry about a undercooked center.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yeah. Because there is no center.
SU: Yeah. I love Bundt ... Whenever I hear the word Bundt cakes, have you watched My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
JS: Yeah. A Bundt.
SU: And that scene where she brings over the Bundt cake and she's like, "what the f is that." I love that movie so much.
JS: [inaudible 00:10:07].
SU: And that scene stays with me. Okay. Bundt. Love a Bundt.
JS: Okay, great. Great. The last thing I want to talk about before we get to listener questions is the glaze featuring one of your secret ingredients: cream cheese.
SU: Yes. I used cream cheese for this. And I was going back and forth about using cream cheese in my glaze. The glaze, essentially. Cream cheese, lemon juice, powdered sugar, and a pinch of salt. And I was like, "Do I really need to do cream cheese?"
JS: Sure.
SU: Because it wasn't in the cake. So this was an extra ingredient and you aren't using a lot of it. But ultimately I settled on including the cream cheese because it added a opacity to the glaze. So it made it very white and provided a really stark contrast to the interior and exterior of this green cake. And also, cream cheese is tart on its own that I was able to infuse the glaze with that tartness in addition to lemon juice without fear of making a very thin glaze. So the cream cheese really was working hard here. I love cream cheese. I think it's a magical ingredient.
JS: It is good. Originally it was pistachio butter in your glaze.
SU: Yes. And a homemade version of it.
JS: Yes.
SU: Because I was like, "Oh, I'm grinding the pistachios for the cake anyway. Why don't you just grind some more and then make it into a nut butter of sorts and then whisk powdered sugar into it?" And it worked.
JS: It worked.
SU: It did look elegant, but it was elegant in a muted sort of-
JS: It was kind like army green or-
SU: Oh, okay.
JS: I don't know.
SU: See, I was like, it was very fashionable. I'm not sure.
JS: No, it was.
SU: Okay. But he said army green.
JS: It was an earth tone.
SU:[inaudible 00:11:51] moving on.
JS: Okay, sure. Well, we're going to take a quick break.
SU: When we get back, we'll answer questions from our wonderful Bake Clubbers and explain how to get your bun cakes out of the pan without falling apart.
Welcome back to BA Bake Club.
JS: Shilpa, we got a bunch of great listener questions about this recipe. Are you ready to answer some?
SU:Yes.
JS: Our first question is about the key ingredient of this bake: pistachios. Kai writes, "What is the significance of using raw pistachios in a cake batter? And would it make a difference if using roasted unseasoned ones?"
SU: I have a lot to say about pistachios. Here's all the things that I tested. First, when I went to the store, I saw Sicilian pistachios.
JS: The really fatty green ones.
SU: Yes.
JS: And skinny.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yes.
SU: And they're very nude.
JS: Yes.
SU: They look peeled.
JS: They look peeled. Yeah. Very smooth.
SU: Very smooth. And actually right away at the store, I decided I don't want those pistachios because while they were deep green, they weren't a bright green. And also it was very expensive. It was the most expensive. I was like, "I can't do this." So I left them behind in the store. Then I came across Turkish pistachios.
JS: That's the one with purple flecks throughout.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yes.
SU: They look kind of like rose buds almost.
JS:They're very beautiful.
SU: Yes. That's the one we used on top of our cake for the photo shoot.
JS: Yes.
SU: I ended up buying the Turkish pistachios, and I used them, and the Turkish pistachios made a brilliant color.
JS: Interesting.
SU: It was beautiful green. However, they weighed the cake down, and ultimately the final texture was a bit more dense than I wanted. So the variety that I finally settled on and used in the cake are regular California pistachios.
JS: Nice. Just the ones you get in a black bag or something?
SU: Yes.
JS: Yes.
SU: I settled on those because they offered the ideal confluence of price. They were reasonable compared to everything else. Good intense color, especially if you make sure that they're untoasted. Then you could really get a good color payoff. I also tested with a toasted one, and it didn't affect performance, but it did affect color.
JS: Interesting. Was it more brown?
SU: It was more brown. It was more a dull sort of green if you use toasted pistachios.
JS: Were they salted?
SU: I tried with toasted unsalted, and I tried with toasted, lightly salted.
JS: Okay. Both worked?
SU: Both worked but color definitely suffered.
JS: Sure.
SU: So I would say look for untoasted, unsalted California pistachios for this pistachio cake.
JS: Just get the regular ones.
SU: Just get the regular ones.
JS: Next question from Roberto. "Can I have the recipe and bake in a loaf pan?"
SU: Roberto, you know the answer to this. We just spoke about me baking this in a loaf pan. Yes. It bakes very well in a loaf pan. I would say stick to the same temperature and start checking it maybe after 35 minutes. It'll take slightly less than in a Bundt pan.
JS: I've seen people in the chat do this. A few different people.
SU: Bake in a loaf pan?
JS: Yeah.
SU: Oh.
JS: It looks great.
SU: Yeah, it comes out very well.
JS: Yeah, it looks very beautiful.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Cool. Next is from Tim. I believe it's Tim Szewczyk. Hello.
SU: Oh.
JS: Who writes-
SU: Not related to Jesse.
JS: Yeah. Not related to me. "This cake is so delicious the next day, when it's warmed up just a little bit. What actually is going on there when that happens?"
SU: See, I love cold cake. I love-
JS: I hate cold cake.
SU: Really?
JS: Yes.
SU: Why?
JS: It's too firm.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Well, it depends. Is it oil-based or is it butter-based?
SU: Oh, sure.
JS: Which I think is the answer to this question.
SU: Yeah. That is the answer to the question.
JS: Yes.
SU: Also, okay, why is it better when it's warmed up a little bit? I think it's because there's melted butter in the cake. There's also all of this fat from the pistachios. So I think when it's warmed up, essentially all of it is melting just a little bit, so it becomes softer and looser, and I think the taste hits your palate earlier when it's warmed up a bit.
JS: Yeah, I think the oil too also really helps with the aging too. This is like the chocolate olive oil cake, which people kept on saying, "Oh, it's actually better the next day or two days later," or whatever. Same concept when it was just loaded with olive oil.
SU: Yeah. I think it really, as you said, that's the right word, ages.
JS: Yeah.
SU: Ages well.
JS: Okay. Our next question is from Mickey who writes, "How are y'all storing the cake? In the fridge or on the counter? Curious because of the cream cheese in the glaze." That's a good question.
SU: That is a good question. When I did make this cake at home once, and then I just kept it on the counter, honestly. I kept it on the counter under this giant bowl that acted as a cake dome and whatever. It just lasted for three days under the bowl. I think, yes, I understand the question about the cream cheese and the dairy, but there's also so much sugar in the glaze that technically it prevents bacterial activity. However, from a food safety point, please do keep it in the fridge if you're planning to store it longer than two days and keep it loosely covered. So under an inverted bowl, or if you have an actual cake dome, like a normal adult person, that would be great too.
JS: We don't have one in the test kitchen.
SU: We actually don't.
JS:We use a giant bowl and a piece of tape that says, "Be careful."
SU: Yes.
JS: Next up from Lee who writes, "I am tempted to experiment with other nuts the next time I bake. Any advice on other nuts that will work well versus ones that might not?"
SU: Yes, Lee, I have advice for you. Actually, I think it'll work well with a lot of nuts. Almonds would work very well. I imagine this working excellent with hazelnuts.
JS: Expensive.
SU: Isn't hazelnut your favorite nut? No. No.
JS: Cashew is my favorite nut.
SU:Cashew [inaudible 00:18:01]. Speaking of, I think cashew is the one that I don't think would work well.
JS: It's a little too creamy.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: So I just don't think it will taste good and taste flat.
JS: What about peanuts? It'd be interesting, right?
SU: Ooh, you really threw me for a loop there.
JS: Oh, peanut cake sounds delicious.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Right?
SU: Oh, maybe in this one it's toasted peanuts.
JS: Yeah.
SU: And then we grind. Oh my God. We're going to make that.
JS: We should try.
SU: With a chocolate glaze on top.
JS: That would be so good.
SU: Okay, great. Yeah, I don't know about peanuts. That's a very good one. I'm going to recuse myself with the fact that peanuts aren't actually nuts, but it's a very good idea. We're going to try this separately. Okay. So I think to answer Lee's question, almonds would work very well. And in the case of almonds, because the color wouldn't matter as much, I think it can be either raw or toasted almonds. I think hazelnuts would work really well. Pecans. Pecans would work really well. Walnuts, I would say they would perform well, but I think they would be just a little too bitter. So you might not want that.
JS: Yeah, the skin gets bitter.
SU: Yeah. So almonds, hazelnuts, pecans.
JS: Last question, Shilpa, and the question on everybody's lips from Ajari, who writes, "I think the most challenging thing was getting the cake out of the Bundt pan. Do you have any recommendations on what to put on it? I used tons of butter with a brush, but it didn't help."
SU: Okay. We've all been there. I have baked for many years, and I have experienced many a failed Bundt pan.
JS: I remember I was on a cookbook shoot. I was styling the cookbook, and Ben, who I bake with often for these kind of things, I started crying because I baked this Bundt cake so many times and it just was not coming out of the pan. And then Ben, I think, had enough and he just smacked it as hard as he could, and it comes out perfectly. So shout out Ben.
SU: It happens to everyone. And over the years, I think I've found a few things that have worked well for me. I think starting with the pan itself, I like a pan that quotes itself as nonstick. And I usually get my Bundt pans from Nordic Ware. I think they're the first and last name in Bundt Pans. They're built well. They're sturdy pans that conduct heat very evenly and they typically have slick coating-
JS: They do, yeah.
SU: ... on the inside, which is very helpful. So look at your pan, and if it feels very dark and matte on the inside, it might be time to get a new pan.
JS: They age, they do.
SU: They age.
JS: And they perform less well the older they get.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yes.
SU: Okay. So that's my note about the Bundt pan itself. The second, and I think most important thing, is how we prepare the Bundt pan. And there are two things that work best for me. Let's do the second most favorite one, I guess, is I like to use room temperature butter. So not melted. It's not fluid. It's room temperature, and it's sort of pliable still. And I use room temperature butter, and a pastry brush. A natural bristle.
JS: Not the silicone ones?
SU: Not the silicone ones, not for this. The silicone ones have a purpose, but just not for this. They're too indelicate for this job.
JS: I don't like the silicone ones for anything.
SU: Even for savory? Even for basting? You could barbecue-
JS: You could slop it on a meat, sure. But I don't know. I don't like them.
SU: I do prefer a natural bristle. I see your point. So a natural bristle brush, room temperature butter, and then you stipple. Is that the word?
JS: Just poke it?
SU: Yeah. You stipple the brush in the butter, and then you brush the butter up the sides and the bottom of the Bundt pan, and you want to see an opaque layer of butter. And I think the difference between using melted butter and this room temp butter is how it clings. The room temp butter will cling to the side of your cake pan, whereas if it's melted, it just runs down the sides and pools at the bottom.
JS: And you can see where you've missed.
SU: Yes.
JS:It's like painting.
SU: Yes. When you use the room temp butter, it is like painting and it's very easy to spot a missed area of the Bundt pan. And then for a little bit of extra insurance, and this is something Jamila, our editor-in-chief, also highlighted in our Bake Club chat was after you butter the pan, you could also chill it for a little while and that forms up the butter even more and make sure it stays against the walls where it belongs.
JS: Yeah. So the butter doesn't, I don't even know, weigh it down.
SU: Make it run down or something. So that has worked well for me in the past. And perhaps the way that I prepare my Bundt pan and works for me all of the time and ensures my cake always releases is using baking spray.
JS: Not non-stick cooking spray?
SU: Yes. Not non-stick cooking spray. It has to be specifically labeled baking spray.
JS: So what is the difference?
SU: Baking spray, it's like cooking spray, but it has flour mixed into it in the can. So when you spray it, you can see it. It comes out in this beige mist.
JS: Dry shampoo?
SU: Yes. Oh my god. It is dry shampoo. And same thing, Jesse, what you said about when you use the room temperature butter, you can see the spots. I think with the baking spray because it has that slightly lighter color and when it hits the walls of the Bundt pan, you can see which area you covered and which spots you've missed. And unlike a cooking spray. A cooking spray will cling to the sides, but it does have a tendency to run down the sides of a Bundt pan.
JS: Sure.
SU: The baking spray, I think because of the addition of flour, it does stay put along the sides. And baking spray has always worked. Anytime I've used baking spray, the cake has always come out. And the reason I prefer a spray over the room temp butter is, especially if my Bundt pan is very intricate, I think the spray goes in and really hits every angle, whereas the room temperature butter, and a brush might not do such a good job.
JS: Is there a brand that you like?
SU:I love Baker's Joy.
JS: Baker's Joy.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Can you buy that in a regular grocery store?
SU: Yeah, I've seen it in the regular grocery store.
JS: It's got a scent.
SU: No one of them has a scent. I think the Pam one.
JS: I think it is the Pam. It's like a vanilla.
SU: Yes. It's like a fake birthday cake smell.
JS: Yeah. Yes.
SU: I love it.
JS: Yeah. I mean, it is not an unpleasant smell. It's just that's my memory of it.
SU: Oh, really?
JS: Yeah.
SU: I like the Baker's Joy, just because I think the packaging is a bit more retro looking. [inaudible 00:24:28].
JS: It's like blue, right?
SU: Yeah.
JS: And just with white text.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yes.
SU: It has a blue lid. Anyway, I highly recommend having a can of baking spray and a little goes a long way. But I think it changes the way it bakes especially on the top.
JS: The crust too.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yeah.
SU: It changes the formation of the crust.
JS: What about flour?
SU: What do you mean? Oh-
JS: So many people in the chat saying, "I like to butter and flour."
SU: I mean, listen, I used to butter and flour my pans all the time. It's unfair for me to make a noise because that is definitely what I did as a kid. Especially for Bundt pans, I hate flouring because I think sometimes the flour, it congeals in pockets.
JS: I remember I was talking to some pastry chef about this, and their whole thing was that butter, it has water. It's like, I don't know, 20 percentage water.
SU: That's true.
JS: And so it's steaming with flour to create a paste.
SU: [inaudible 00:25:31].
JS: So instead of making what you think is a non-stick thing, it's just making a paste on the outside.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yes.
SU: Oh my god, whoever this person is, bless them. They have explained very clearly what I was trying to say.
JS: Yeah. So they're almost like, "If you're going to do it, you're better off doing oil and flour, even though it's not recommended."
SU: Yeah. One thing I haven't tried, but I have been curious to, is the Cake goop, the Pan goop, which is a mix of, I think, shortening-
JS: I think it is. And flour.
SU: And oil and flour.
JS: I've never used it, but I've seen people swear by it.
SU: Yeah.
JS: I know. Grandbaby Cakes, she loves it. And shout out to Grandbaby. She's just a blogger and cookbook author who makes incredible cakes.
SU: Yeah, she does.
JS: And she swears by it.
SU: Oh, wow. We got to give this a whirl in the test kitchen.
JS: Yeah.
SU: Okay. So Ajari and everyone else who struggled with your Bundts this month, we see you. I hope this helps.
JS: We're going to take one more break.
SU: When we get back, the Bake Club is getting bigger. Jesse and I are going to introduce you to another baker whose work we think you should know.
JS: Welcome back to BA Bake Club.
SU: Bake Club has now been around for a few months, and we are loving the community that has popped up around it.
JS: Obviously, we think Bake Club is the best place on the internet, but we want to expand the club and introduce you to other bakers and recipe developers whose work we personally love.
SU: So this month's baker you should know, is a baking legend.
JS: She is.
SU: She's the author of 13 cookbooks, including the Baking Bible, the Bread Bible, and my personal favorite, and perhaps the most iconic baking book of all time, the Cake Bible, which is out now in its 35th anniversary edition. Rose Levy Beranbaum, welcome to BA Bake Club.
Rose Levy Beranbaum: Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
SU: Rose, I know you as a personal friend, and to have you here on this podcast feels like such a full circle moment to me.
JS: To me as well, especially also because I started my career, it was launched by Bon Appétit several decades ago. I made a wedding cake and they talked about my school and they were lining around the block to attend the school. So yes, it launched me in a really big way, and I wrote several articles for Bon App, so I feel like I've come home.
SU: Wow.
JS: I'm so excited to meet you too, because I've been a fan from afar my whole life. It's my first time meeting you.
RLB: Wow. Thank you.
SU: The first question, I guess I want to ask ... Of course everybody knows you for your baking. I know you also wrote a lot of savory books, but to focus on the baking, why and how did you first fall in love with baking in particular?
RLB: Probably because I grew up with a mother who was a dentist who didn't allow sweets. And then when I started tasting other people's cakes and desserts, I thought they were hideously sweet, and that the only way I could fix it was by making it myself.
SU: Did you write your thesis on something related to baking?
RLB: Yeah, when I was getting my master's in food and not nutrition, but science and culinary arts, and we were given a master's thesis assignment to take one simple sentence and bring it to every possible conclusion. My sentence was does sifting effect the quality of a yellow cake mix? And years later, all the tests that I proposed were ones that were done and became the Cake Bible.
SU: Wow.
JS: Oh, wow.
SU: That's incredible. And I guess that brings me to the question of why cake? You're obviously famous for many things in the baking world, but why did you decide to hone in on cake specifically in the early days of your career?
RLB: That's a really good question, because before I started at NYU to get my two degrees, I was at the Fashion Institute of Technology, FIT. And I like to say I went from draping fabric to draping fondant. I was very oriented toward the craftsmanship of decorating and design. So cakes lent itself more to that than anything else. People can do very fancy pies, but when I do pies, it's more homey. Cookies as well. But decorative, I've done a lot for the magazines and also made over a 100 wedding cakes for sale. So it became my whole life.
Of course, the appearance to me is secondary because it has to have a wonderful texture, not too sweet, balance of flavors. And I guess that was what I worked hardest to achieve and created what they call the reverse creaming method, which made it faster, easier, and better. So I guess I can't say I really created it because I created it using butter. And when I started writing about cakes and desserts, it was common wisdom that you could not use butter for that method. It had to be Crisco, shortening. That's what they taught at the culinary schools.
SU: And for anyone listening, Rose's technique is you start with the dry ingredients first, and then you add the fat and make a batter. And then the liquid ingredients. Unlike a traditional cake where you start with the butter and sugar first. And Rose, on that note, speaking about techniques and stuff, Jesse has a question for you.
RLB: Okay.
JS: I do. Okay, Rose. So we have a question that came from our community of listeners that I think you are perfectly positioned to help us answer.
RLB: Okay.
JS: And this is from Alicia, and she wrote to us. "It's looking like my seven-month-old daughter has an egg allergy. We are waiting on a specialist appointment to confirm in a few weeks, but in the meantime, I've been trying to get her and my husband and I to enjoy an egg-less existence. Do you have any advice on how to sub eggs in baking so I can still make muffins and pancakes and cake and waffles?"
RLB: I have to say that I can bake without flour, but I can't bake without eggs. That's not my specialty. No. We specialize in specific things, and substitution is not my specialty. But there are people out there who are doing wonderful jobs with this, like Fran Costigan, and then somebody in England, Kat, who has The Loopy Whisk.
SU: Oh, yes, she's great.
RLB: She's a scientist. This is a science.
SU: Yes. No, that's actually great because I think what we want you to speak about more is why are eggs so essential for baking, especially in cakes, and what do they do in baking?
RLB: Well, I have to modify it by saying classic baking because there are other ways to do it. But for classical baking, for baking a cake especially, eggs are two things. They leaven. In other words, they help the cake to rise. And it's an emulsifier. In other words, it helps to mix the ingredients more evenly. And one of the big issues these days is what's happened to eggs and it's been going on for several years, and everybody's noticed it who bakes and even who don't. That the yolk in proportion to the white has become smaller, and that means that you're getting more white and less yolk and yolk is the emulsifier.
I discovered that when I was making a Genoise. It was coarse. And went through really a lot of head scratching, trying to figure out what was going on. And then I thought, "Okay, let me try adding an extra egg yolk," and it solved the problem. So now what I do in the new book is I actually separate the eggs and the whites even when they're going to be put back together again to make sure we have the right amount.
SU: Rose, that's a level of detail I would expect only from you.
RLB: I know. I'm not sure people are going to be delighted about this. So we did give the overall amount in case somebody just wants to do one egg or two eggs. But I have to say also, I think my most important contribution, aside from weighing, which thank God everybody's doing now, instead of measuring is I found a way to beat egg whites that will never get dry. But they say beat until stiff but not dry, which makes it fall apart and then they lose their leavening ability. They completely break down. And that's using an eighth of a teaspoon of cream of tartar, which is a natural ingredient from the wine making industry, per egg white. But if you use it, you can beat for a half hour and they don't fall apart. I'm so proud of it.
JS: Interesting. That's cool.
RLB: These are the things that make a big difference because there's are not that many ingredients in cake baking, but the ones that you use have to be the right ones. Don't get me started on talking about flour, bleached versus unbleached. I can't understand when I see a recipe that says all-purpose flour. It's a huge difference whether it's bleached or unbleached.
SU: In many ways I agree with you. This is an ongoing conversation in the Test Kitchen.
JS: Yeah. Shilpa and I have talked for hours about this.
SU: Yes. And we've been fighting to have in the ingredient list in our recipes to specify that it's bleached or unbleached, but I don't think we've got there yet.
JS: I don't think we've won yet.
SU: We had one.
RLB: I can join your conversation anytime.
JS: We'll call you in for reinforcement.
SU: Yes. But Jesse, maybe to answer Alicia's question, we should offer a few suggestions. I was going with flax eggs.
JS: That is a popular one.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah. Maybe that's the go-to when the internet tells people.
RLB: And apple sauce, right?
JS: Yes.
SU: And applesauce. Yeah.
JS: Yes.
SU: Applesauce is a great substitute. I think in many ways ... Alicia specifically asked about muffins, pancakes, cake, and waffles. I do feel like substituting eggs in something like pancakes or waffles is pretty easy because there's a lot of chemical leaveners going on in those two specifically for structure that it helps. For the muffins and cakes I'm slightly-
RLB: Yeah. I agree.
SU: ... a bit more hesitant.
JS: It's higher risk.
SU: Yeah. Well, it is, but speaking about subs, as you said, Rose, your suggestion of applesauce. Jesse, we spoke about flax seeds, and to explain what a flax egg is, it's essentially ground flax seeds mixed with a bit of water, and then you let it sit for a while until it forms this gelatinous substance, which behaves much like an egg white specifically. And by using a flax egg, for instance, you're suddenly now able to make a vegan dessert when you didn't have that option before.
JS: Or aquafaba is a popular egg white substitution.
SU: Yes. That is a good one. I have tried that. That one works very well. You can actually make meringues out of aquafaba, which is-
JS: Interesting.
RLB: Yeah. I tried that too.
SU: With water from a can of chickpeas essentially. Have you ever tried the egg substitute that comes in the carton or the jar?
JS: I have not, but I've seen it.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: People make scrambled eggs out of it.
JS: Interesting. Yeah.
SU: I don't know.
JS: I don't know either.
RLB: A substitute will never be equal in every way, but sometimes it might even be better, but just don't expect the same results.
SU: I guess a substitute depends very much on what the final use is. Aquafaba, great for making meringues. A flax egg, you would never make a meringue out of.
JS: Yes, something would happen.
SU: Yes, something weird would happen. So I would say I think there are a bunch of different options, and you have to pick one that suits your best application. And in my experience, that has been that aquafaba can whip and act like egg whites in a more traditional sense. You can make meringues. You could possibly make a genoise even, I think, and flax eggs might be great, and applesauce would be great in muffins, pancakes, and waffles.
JS: Right.
SU: Rose, we are very, very happy that you could join us. Congratulations on the 35th anniversary edition of Cake Bible.
JS: That's amazing.
RLB: Thank you, Shilpa. Thank you.
SU: Yeah, I have not one but two copies at home.
RLB: I made sure.
SU: Yes, you did. One from you or one from me. And also-
RLB: Yes. Exactly.
SU: Where can people find you on the internet?
RLB: Oh, thanks for asking. Well, of course I'm on Instagram. That's the major venue these days. Real Baking with Rose. I also have, of course, the blog, which seems to get a lot more attention but we actually give recipes on the blog, and that is also realbakingwithrose.com.
SU: You really get detailed on your blog-
RLB: Thank you.
SU: ... in a way that your books indicate. But in your blog, you really dive deep with supporting pictures, and it's very fascinating to read your blog.
JS: [inaudible 00:38:13]. Thank you so much for being here. I feel like the details truly is the spirit of Bake Club.
RLB: Thank you for inviting me.
JS: That's it for this month's edition of BA Bake Club.
SU: Jesse, do you want to tell readers about the April Bake Club recipe?
JS: So it is a millionaire shortbread bar, which is a recipe we don't have. Bon Appétit does not have a classic billionaire shortbread recipe, so it was due time.
SU: Yep.
JS: Yeah. And I love cookies. I love making shortbread. This one is super cool. Every layer I feel like has an interesting technique.
SU: Oh, yeah.
JS: And I'm just really excited about it.
SU: This was a great one.
JS: Thanks. Yeah.
SU: Okay. Any special ingredient or equipment that you think our Bake Clubbers should have on hand for this one?
JS: Not really. No. The only special piece you need is a square baking pan. I would say preferably metal, like an eight by eight. I like metal because the straight sides, and I think it conducts heat really well. So you get a nice toast on your shortbread base. But nothing special at all, really. And there's no eggs in it.
SU: Oh, yeah.
JS: Yeah. No eggs.
SU: No eggs after-
JS: Yes. This should be a good one.
SU: After a few egg heavy recipes.
JS: Yeah. We finally caught up with society over here.
SU: Well, Bake Clubbers, once you bake through Jesse's millionaire shortbread, please send us your questions and your pictures. There are so many different ways for you to get in touch with us.
JS: You can comment on the recipe, on the Epicurious app or on the Bon Appétit website, or email us at bakeclubatbonappetit.com. And if you've made it and loved it, rate and review the recipe on our site.
SU: We're your hosts, Shilpa Uskokovic.
JS: And Jesse Szewczyk
SU: Michele O'Brien is our senior producer.
JS: Jake Lummus and James Yost are our studio engineers.
SU: Research editing by Marissa Wolkenberg.
JS: This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound.
SU: Our executive producer is Jordan Bell.
JS: Chris Bannon is Condé Nast head of Global Audio.
SU: If you like this show, leave us a rating and review and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode of BA Bake Club or Dinner SOS.
JS: And if you're not already part of the club, head to bonappetit.com/bakeclub to find all the information you need to join.
SU: Thanks for listening to BA Bake Club. We'll see you next month.
JS: But until then, next week on Dinner SOS, Janae hosts what sounds like a delicious Passover Seder, but there's one key component that she can't seem to nail.
Janae: I have been trying and trying and trying to get matzo balls that don't fall apart in my soup for, I think, six Passovers now.