ON THIS WEEK’S episode of Dinner SOS, test kitchen director and host Chris Morocco is back with test kitchen editor Shilpa Uskokovic to talk about the joys and challenges of spring cooking.
We finally made it through the long winter. You know what that means? It’s time for spring produce! We’re talking asparagus, radishes, ramps, you name it! If you’re anything like Shilpa, you rejoice at the mere mention of asparagus. Chris, though, might need some more convincing. Is it actually worth the hype?
Shilpa takes us on a tour of spring vegetable heavy hitters and celebrates the joy of letting asparagus be what it is—asparagus! They mention recipes that can jazz up that sometimes single-minded veg like Grilled Asparagus With Tahini Super Sauce. In contrast, they talk about the delights of the versatility of rhubarb, like in Chris’s recipe for BA’s Best Strawberry Rhubarb Pie. They also answer listener questions, like how does one prepare ramps and use them, and the answer might just be in BA’s “17 Ramp Recipes So You Can Get ’Em While They’re Good.”
Listen now to hear more about all the other things we are cooking this spring!
Chris Morocco: I wrote a song about this.
Shilpa Uskokovic: Wow.
CM: I'd like to sing it.
SU: Oh my gosh.
CM: I hope I can get it out without giggling hysterically.
SU: I won't look at you. Will that help?
CM: Yes.
SU: I can turn away.
CM: That will help.
SU: Okay. I'm not going to look at Chris.
CM: Why does asparagus suddenly appear every time Shilpa's near? Unlike me, she longs to be close to spring produce.
SU: Wow. I'm going to retire after this. Oh, my God. This is the best episode I've ever.
CM: You not making any eye contact with me for the duration of the song-
SU: I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it.
CM: -Really helped. Hey there, listeners, future callers and cooking enthusiasts. Welcome to Dinner SOS, the show where we help you save dinner or whatever you're cooking. I'm Chris Morocco, Food Director of Bon Appetit, and Epicurious. Spring is in the air, so this week I'm joined by someone who loves and I mean loves this season and all that it has to offer, culinarily speaking. Hi, Shilpa.
SU: Hi, Chris. I do love spring produce.
CM: Yeah, we know. That's why you're here because, Shilpa, we ran the numbers and it seems like you are something of a spring produce evangelist.
SU: Wait, what?
CM: Radishes, asparagus, peas. Oh, my. Later in the show, we're going to answer some listener questions about spring cooking, but first, what is it about spring produce that speaks to you?
SU: We live in the Northeast. I think the fact that you've been through this long winter, and this is potatoes and rutabagas and turnips in the market, and I think going through that and then finally seeing these vegetables that are green and alive really makes me feel alive, which is the most cliched answer probably anybody could ever give about spring produce, but it's the truth. Every year, I'm surprised anew by the asparagus. I'm like, "Oh my God. Yes, asparagus."
CM: All right, we're going to interrogate that in a sec, but yeah, I found a lot of examples of things that you've done with radishes.
SU: Wait. I didn't know this was a researched episode.
CM: Whoa. Yeah, no, we did our homework for this one.
SU: Okay.
CM: There's also your crispy miso-butter fish, which had asparagus alongside.
SU: Yes, one of my first recipes, Chris, on this website.
CM: I know. There also is the grilled asparagus with tahini mayo. The tahini mayo living forever in my heart, as Bagna Cold-a, and I will not let it go. Also, yeah, for what it's worth, you've got a green pea fritter recipe.
SU: Oh, yeah.
CM: With the cottage cheese. People love that one.
SU: Yeah, people love that one, though in all fairness, that is made with frozen peas, but still. It's springy. It's the notion of spring.
CM: Yeah. Talk to me about the notion of spring, broad strokes, spring produce, what are we actually talking about? What is out there?
SU: In my mind, spring produce, as clearly evidenced by all the research that you've done on me, in my mind, spring produce is one thing and one thing only, and it's asparagus.
CM: What?
SU: It's asparagus. I'm a fool for asparagus. I don't know what it is. I see asparagus and I go crazy. Every time, it's like the first time I'm seeing them, every year.
CM: What else is out there?
SU: There's the radish. There are ramps, which I don't know any more. I still genuinely do love the flavor of ramps, but then I think they were so hot and they were very restaurant industry insider for a while. Then people glommed onto that and now it's like, I don't know. Is it cool to love ramps anymore? I have to say, I have to say-
CM: Do you love ramps?
SU: I actually genuinely love ramps, especially when I make them into a butter or pesto, which is what I did last year.
CM: Oh, you did. Yeah.
SU: I have started loving them even more because the last two years, I went to actually forage for ramps myself. As somebody who is not an outdoorsy person, that just made me feel so, I was like, "That's it. I'm an agriculturist."
CM: Agriculturist.
SU: I really felt accomplished, digging up the earth. I was like, "Yes, I can live off this land."
CM: Spring produce for me, it's the radishes. It's even fava beans, peas, fiddlehead ferns, morel mushrooms. What was that guffaw of disgust? Fiddleheads?
SU: Yeah, also quite a bit of debate on that one.
CM: Yeah, they're a little woolly. I don't know that they're entirely food for humans.
SU: Yes, yes. This is really foraged for sure.
CM: Yes. It's forage for maybe a large ruminant of some kind with a few extra stomachs to actually process them. Fiddleheads are the curled heads of ferns that emerge from the ground pre-unfurl, so they're the =tightly coiled heads of juvenile fern plants, which erupt out of forest floors everywhere throughout the Northeast.
SU: Chris, I feel like this is a National Geographic episode.
CM: It is.
SU: Yeah, it really is.
CM: It's going in that direction.
SU: Yeah. The way you're speaking, I'm like, "Yes, absolutely. I can watch it breaking through the earth."
CM: I'm no David Attenborough, but I know what you mean in terms of the pleasure of the 360 nature of communing with a wild plant that is growing and transforming into something compelling, but I have to come clean here, Shilpa. I think generally speaking, spring produce is a sham. I think it's a crock. Honestly, the fact that asparagus is the Alamo stockade that you are constructing of green spears in front of yourself and saying, "No, this is worthy of celebration." I don't know. I just don't know that I feel it. Yeah.
SU: This has taken a drastic turn that I wasn't expecting.
CM: I know.
SU: Would you like to expound?
CM: Here's my problem. It's not even the fact that asparagus makes your pee smell funny, which it unequivocally does, but that's not even the issue.
SU: Sure. Okay.
CM: For me, the issue is, asparagus is fine. It only wants to be one thing. Whether it's grilled, whether it is seared, knocked around in a skillet, it doesn't readily transform into too many things. The ultimate expression of asparagus that I think of is just spears arranged on a plate, cooked to medium doneness in terms of al dente, probably a little bit softer. That's my problem.
SU: I think you have very good points about asparagus, but I think that is what makes it appealing, at least for me, the fact that it just is, and then you have to appreciate it-
CM: For what it is.
SU: For what it is, and then it's gone.
CM: Here's what I'd like to ask you to do. Can you convince me? Can you walk me through two recipes that you think define the best of what spring cooking can be?
SU: Okay. I think I'm just going to lean in on my brand and be like, "Yes."
CM: Yes.
SU: Spring is asparagus. Okay. I have two ideas. Jesse's asparagus and endive salad with the Comté cream. That was very good.
CM: That's very cheesy and endive-y.
SU: Yeah, but there's asparagus.
CM: Asparagus is just there.
SU: No, it is. Everything is built around it.
CM: Okay. Explain to me how.
SU: The endive is a bed laying there, waiting for asparagus to fall on it.
CM: Start from the beginning. What is this salad?
SU: Okay. The salad, which our colleague Jesse Szewczyk made, first of all, he toasts hazelnuts, so there's nice dark toasted hazelnuts, coarsely chopped. Then Jesse cooks a bunch of asparagus, either green or white. I think we ran both versions, actually, in the test kitchen. Then he blanches them quickly, shocks them. Then he makes this cheese sauce, which is a blender cheese sauce. It doesn't see any heat at all. You blend garlic, Comté cheese, and then olive oil into this cheese sauce that's also a dressing. Then you toss it all with red wine vinegar, more olive oil, pepper, salt, these endive spears. Then you toss it all, place it on a plate and then just drape more cheese on top if you want. I think it's just so-
CM: The sauce is incredible. That salad is a strong data point in your favor.
SU: Thank you.
CM: That cheese sauce is masterful. Comté is a Gruyere-style cheese. It's an alpine cheese, funky, little bit of dirty gym socks, but in a nice way.
SU: Not fart in the car?
CM: Very fatty, very rich, so nutty, but with a sweetness, a grassiness and a sweetness to it. Oh, my God. It's got such presence, and what he did with that recipe was great.
SU: Yes.
CM: Do you have a second act to follow a very, very compelling opening gambit?
SU: I do have a second act, and it's actually a recipe that I worked on in keeping with my asparagus-themed recipe development over the years. It's the asparagus and chicken stir-fry. I think this actually might be my favorite way to use asparagus is to slice it in here, in the recipe, I cut it into, not coins. I cut them on the diagonal into pieces. Then I stir-fry it with chicken, oyster sauce, the usual suspects. I think the asparagus almost acts like water chestnut in here where it's crunchy and it's adding this freshness. It lifts all of the other heavier, saltier ingredients up and out. Also, as I was speaking, I just realized, I think I'm able to diagnose your asparagus problem.
CM: Okay.
SU: I think it's the fact that you have to use, you must use jumbo asparagus. Pencil asparagus. See, I don't like pencil asparagus. Whoa. Jumbo asparagus is the one that I always spring for, because I think it has a nice ratio.
CM: You spring for it?
SU: I spring for it, completely unintentional, because there's a different ratio of flesh to skin. Also, are you peeling your asparagus stalks or no? I fear for the answer.
CM: Yeah. Yeah, I do.
SU: Yes? Okay, wow.
CM: Especially if they're bigger.
SU: Yes.
CM: Yeah. Past a certain point, that lower half needs it, because what happens is the texture of the skin almost wants to separate from the flesh within, so you almost have two competing textures. When you fork or knife it, there's a little bit of a clash, like overly tough broccoli skin along the stalk. Interesting that for you, the chicken and asparagus stir-fry, that asparagus is functioning like a little bit of negative space against a backdrop of quite flavorful, amped up elements. Are you saying that asparagus needs strong flavors, because in both of your cases, you've paired it with extremely assertive elements here.
SU: Yeah. Yeah. I think there is something to be said. Usually, we do see asparagus, as you mentioned before, whole stalks either grilled or blanched and served with a hollandaise, a very delicate, rich sauce, but I think asparagus can stand up, especially green asparagus can stand up to stronger ingredients because it just punches right through. It has its own, I don't want to say grassy, but chlorophyll. It tastes like spring. It's green.
CM: See, this is my hypothesis about spring produce.
SU: Okay.
CM: My perspective is, what we're craving when we crave spring produce is just chlorophyll. It's just that. I think part of where spring produce breaks down for me is there are easier ways to get abundant amounts of chlorophyll. It's hard to even say what the flavor of chlorophyll is. It is some semblance of green, like a cut grass note to it, but it's very gentle. When I think about, okay, how do I add this sensation of green, verdant freshness to my cooking, I'm thinking about things like taking a bunch of cilantro, blending it into a cup of broth, and then stirring it back into my pozole.
I'm thinking taking a few splats of butter, chopping up some parsley leaves into it. I'm thinking stir-frying bunches of dill right into your spice-drenched chicken or fish. I think in winter, perhaps I'm willing to let deep, rich foods just be their badass selves. I'm not reaching for the lemon to squeeze over my pizza, whereas in spring, yes, I do want that sensation of freshness from more of my cooking. You know what I love, and we haven't even touched on it? For me, it's honestly the star of spring, if there is one.
SU: I feel like you're going to say carrot.
CM: What? What?
SU: Okay. I don't know. Okay.
CM: Rhubarb. Rhubarb, Shilpa.
SU: Okay. Yes, Christopher. Yes. Yes.
CM: Green rhubarb, crimson, burgundy-hued rhubarb. The fat ones, the skinny ones. I don't care.
SU: Yeah.
CM: I love it all.
SU: Yeah? Did you always grow up with it?
CM: Not so much. It was a little bit of a novelty growing up, I'd say. I found it more in adulthood. I just find it's so easy to transform rhubarb into something really luscious and compelling, a little bit of sugar. Frankly, a good bit of sugar, let's be honest, a pinch of salt, maybe a little lemon, vanilla, a backing flavor of some kind. Cardamom is dynamite with rhubarb, but I also, I myself have, I went and hunted this information down. I've developed at least two rhubarb-related recipes. I have a strawberry rhubarb galette with buckwheat crust.
SU: Oh, yes.
CM: I also did BA's Best Strawberry Rhubarb Pie. I think if you can just bring yourself to buy a pound or two of rhubarb stocks from the green market or a supermarket, cook it down, then you can just pile it onto yogurt toast, serve it with custard, serve it with whipped cream. Just it's a gateway to some of the simplest desserts, but also, I love it on granola and some breakfast foods, too, pancakes, what have you.
SU: I think to your point earlier when you spoke about asparagus being single-minded in a way, rhubarb is the opposite and you can. It's very versatile. You can use it in savory. You can use it for sweets. You can roast it. You can braise, stew, make a chutney. Yeah, rhubarb is a very good pick.
CM: Anything else you want to mention about spring cooking or baking?
SU: I think, to me, spring cooking is in a way almost more exciting than summer where there's often more produce available, yes, but spring, I think is shoulder season. It's still cool enough that you feel like cooking at home. You want to turn the oven on. You want to cook a lot. I think it's the combination of the temperature outside and the availability of these new things that feel very alive that make spring the best cooking season for me.
CM: All right. We're going to take a quick break. When we get back, we'll answer some listener questions about some controversial spring produce and how to cook fish without the smellier side effects.
Okay. Shilpa, we are back. Are you ready to answer some spring cooking questions?
SU: Absolutely.
CM: All right. First up, we have a voice memo from Luke. Let's hear it.
Luke: Every spring, it seems like my girlfriend gets very excited about ramps or scapes. I just, how are they different than onions or even scallions? Can you help me figure out the difference or understand the difference between ramps, scapes, onions, scallions, how to prepare them and what dishes they're used for?
SU: On an emotional level, they're different. It's the discovery of them. It's the fleeting nature of them.
CM: Why are they different things emotionally?
SU: Ramps and scapes, they are for that season. I think that makes them precious in a way, and you can appreciate them more.
CM: Come clean here, Shilpa. Are they all doing a little bit of the same thing?
SU: Yes. I really hoped you weren't going to ask the question.
CM: I'd almost throw a leek in there, a Japanese leak.
SU: Or garleek, the new leek.
CM: Garleek, the newest leek of all.
SU: Oh, goodness. Okay. There's obviously a botanical difference, so we don't need to go into that one.
CM: You're an agriculturist. You know all about this stuff.
SU: I know. I know.
CM: You forage for ramps yourself.
SU: I know. I'm really trying to make a hard game, because-
CM: Brow furrowed in concentration, back to the sun, working your way up the hillside like a modern day Blueberries for Sal, ramps for Shilpa.
SU: Have you ever foraged for ramps?
CM: They grow in my frigging yard. It's a weed, Shilpa.
SU: Oh my God, Christopher, what a flex.
CM: There is something very gratifying, like your first food that you ferment yourself. It feels a little bit like discovering fire, that quality to it. I pulled this out of the ground. I was smart enough to not be duped by some whatever.
SU: Lily.
CM: Poison ramp right next to it or something. I ate it. I survived and I'm here and I'm ready to talk to you about it.
SU: Yeah, no.
CM: It's very fulfilling.
SU: There's the case for ramps over scallions, because I think-
CM: Same thing goes for apples, though, so you know what? Nice try, ramps.
SU: I think I'm finding this hard to answer in part because I have asked myself the same question. Sometimes I'm like, "Why wouldn't I just use scallions instead of ramps?"
CM: I would say, okay, scallions, so mild. It's in the raw onion family, but there's no bulb to it, so it's very tender and just about the most mildest player in the allium family band. Scapes are something different still, because it's coming off the garlic plant, so the scapes have that kind of green garlic quality to them. Ramps are punchy. You generally wouldn't eat them raw.
SU: I was going to say, I think ramps are so impactful when they're minimally cooked. I notice once you cook ramps down, when you wilt them down, they lose their allure. They become very mild.
CM: Yeah, I'd say the greens of the ramp, the ramp has three sections to it. There's a green, which is a very tender leek green, almost. It has a little bit of that green garlic quality to it, a little bit punchy.
SU: Yeah, sharp.
CM: Then there's the stalk, which is more of the same. Then there's the bulb, this hard-ish white, multi-layered bulb that's somewhere between garlic and leek in terms of its intensity. You don't necessarily need a ton of it raw, but pickled.
SU: Pickled.
CM: Quickly cooked.
SU: So good.
CM: Sweated into butter, it's very nice. I think it's the emotional connection to the ramp as the avatar of spring and the changes happening around you that is the power, right? From a culinary standpoint, it's niche.
SU: Yes, it is. Also maybe now is a good time to insert the little caveats about ramp bulbs.
CM: Foraging?
SU: You're not supposed to really pull ramps from the ground with their bulbs attached, because it takes a long time for them to grow and spread.
CM: If you remove the bulb, you're removing that plant's ability to regenerate itself, so technically, if you are foraging them yourself,
SU: Cut the tops off.
CM: Cut the tops off.
SU: Leave the bulbs behind is the general wisdom.
CM: Ramps and butter, garlic and butter, leek and butter.
SU: Yeah, or cream.
CM: Or cream, full fat dairy and the punchiness of all the allium family, dynamite.
SU: Yeah.
CM: Use whatever is speaking to you on an emotional level. Know there's a lot of different ways to get there.
SU: Yeah.
CM: Luke, listen, ramps, if they speak to you on an emotional level, go for it. I think they're beloved because they're such a fleetingly, seasonally available ingredient, but there are plenty of other alliums that can take you to a very similar place. I hope that's helpful. Let us know what you come up with.
All right, moving on. From Rebecca, she writes, "I've got a problem. I love eating fish, but I can't stand smelling like it. For that matter, I can't stand when my home smells like it either. Baking, pan, frying, grilling, it all seems to coat me in fish perfume. As soon as I'm done eating, all I want to do is shower and change my clothes and it's all I can think about. God forbid I try to fall asleep. Imagine someone holding a fish under your nose the entire night. Not only that, but I always seem to overdo it with fish. It cooks so fast. What do I do? Lately, my answer's been eating less fish and that's not a solution I'm happy with." Good for you, Rebecca. That's great. Don't give up.
SU: Yes, good for you. Wow. I hear the problem, but I don't know.
CM: You keep your door open all year round. What are you doing giving Rebecca advice?
SU: This is true. Okay. Should I recuse myself from this? You're onto me about the door. Last week, too. I don't know that I've experienced this problem with the same intensity as Rebecca. She's really sleeping with that imaginary fish under her nose.
CM: My question is, are you sure that the problem is as bad when you bake the fish, and are you doubly sure that it's still an issue if you bake the fish at a low temperature?
SU: Yeah.
CM: I think a lot of people think they need color on their fish. They want crispy skin. They want color. They want Maillard reactions. As we heard in Back to Basics Week with a meal around cooking proteins, listen, there's a time and place for Maillard reactions, but it's not every fish every time, so a slow roast salmon in a 275 degree oven is really going to be minimally fishy.
SU: Yeah, that's actually-
CM: Of you are browning it, you're going to smell it, okay? That goes with, frankly, most foods.
SU: Yeah, I think that's actually such a good answer. It's like when you cook eggs, hard-boiling eggs, for instance, when they cook just right and then you overboil them a little bit and then they smell horrible. I think it might be that. When you pull the fish just when it's done, it isn't as strong, the smell. I do like your suggestion of cooking it lower, slower in an encased environment such as the oven.
CM: If you are committed to having a buttery saltine or Ritz cracker topping on the fish, by all means do that, but cook that stove top on the side or roast that alongside and then just top your fish after. Don't feel like you have to put the fish into a 400 degree oven to get the color you're looking for on a topping of that sort, even if that's the issue, which it probably is not.
SU: Yeah. I actually like the point that you said about crispy skin because I do feel that when you try to crisp skin, fish skin, that's when it releases the most smell.
CM: Oh, yeah. There's air. There's convective air coming off of your stove top, billowing around your entire kitchen and living room and whatever else, environment. I think the more enclosed environment of an oven or even poaching fish with the cover on can really help.
SU: Yeah. Maybe the one thing is don't fry fish at home if you're sensitive.
CM: Do not fry fish.
SU: Yeah.
CM: Totally. All right. Rebecca, hope that is helpful. We're going to take another break. When we're back, how to navigate the less exciting weeks of CSA season and create a perfect risotto.
We're back. Our next question comes from Darlene. "I just signed up for my eighth year of my local farm CSA. I love getting fresh veggies each week for the season. The problem I have is that every year, I dread the few weeks each spring where I get a ton of potatoes. Is it possible I'm just not a potato person? I would love some potato recipes that are exciting and hopefully have some texture to them. I'm vegan, so butter and cream are out. What I don't like about all the recipes I've tried is that they taste too fluffy or steamed. How can I get excited to cook and eat my local spuds?"
SU: Wow.
CM: I thought this had a real twist in the fact that Darlene is vegan. In fairness, a lot of my go-to applications for potatoes do involve animal fat of some sort.
SU: Yeah, I agree. I think potatoes go so well with some kind of fat because they are lean on their own. I think a smashed potato might be the way to go here.
CM: Talk about that. What's the technique?
SU: Smashed potatoes, you can approach it a few different ways, but the way I prefer to do them is put these potatoes, preferably small potatoes, in a pot of heavily salted boiling water. Cook them until they're about 60% to 70% done. Drain and let the residual moisture evaporate. They just do that by sitting around. Then you tumble them all onto a sheet tray and press them down. You can either use another sheet tray to press it all down if you want to finish it in a matter of minutes, or you can go in and use the back of a glass, a heavy glass to press them down one by one, which gives you a more even leveling of the potatoes.
Then you introduce some kind of fat. In Darlene's case, it would be oil and then salt, pepper, roast it in a high oven, maybe I would say 400, 425 until the skins are crispy. I think this really bridges two worlds. It's crispy outer skin and then the insides are still fluffy and tender. I think it really helps you appreciate the potato for what it is, especially a spring potato. A spring potato is a beautiful thing.
CM: I love that technique. The double cook method of steaming or boiling followed by crushing. I often just crisp them in a skillet. Same thing, abundant fat. I think the fundamental issue at my hypothesis for Darlene that she is not using enough fat with her potatoes. A potato absent enough fat is going to taste very tubery and very starchy or waxy and of not that much else. I think they can take wildly aggressive flavors. Potatoes can take so much heat. They can take so much smoked paprika. They can take so many aromatic spices, cumin, coriander, fennel seed. You name it, potatoes take it all. I put a lot of chop masala in my potatoes. I love it, that sour snap. Love, but fat. Always, always, always fat. I hope you are availing yourself, Darlene, of vegan butters like Miyoko's or Country Crock, avocado, oil-based butter. There's some good options out there and I would use them, because I feel like a great potato is one of life's joys.
SU: I agree. A seasonal potato from, I know this sounds obnoxious, but from a local farm really is, you really appreciate it, because it's such a commodity vegetable, really, the potato. I love a russet potato. Trust me, I do, but there's something about eating a new potato or some kind of German butterball that really is like, "Oh, this is a potato and this is what it tastes like." Yeah. They can be a fun discovery.
CM: Okay, Darlene, hope that works out for you. Please let us know. If it's the fat thing, let us know. If you try the double-cooked potato method, steamed or boiled, then crisped, we want to know about it.
All right, from Ashna. "I consider myself to be a pretty good cook, although I'm partial to my South Asian upbringing and tend to bring those techniques and spices with me no matter what I cook. My boyfriend has been craving a break from South Asian and Middle Eastern cuisine, so I've been trying to crack risotto as a springtime meal. There are so many possibilities with greens and proteins here, but I can't seem to perfect the texture of my risotto. It tends to be thick instead of the smooth and light texture I want to achieve. Also, I feel like I tend to undercook it, despite endlessly stirring. Any tips on the perfect risotto?"
SU: This is making me laugh a little because every time I do make risotto at home, if my mom has eaten it, she's like, "This is uncooked rice. Take it away." She's like, "You don't know how to cook."
CM: Take it away.
SU: She is horrified. She's horrified at the idea of risotto. She's like, "Why wouldn't you just cook the rice all the way? I don't understand." She's perplexed. I really get this. Not to stereotype, but as a fellow South Asian, the concept of rice being al dente, as it is often in risotto, is quite puzzling.
CM: It's interesting, this notion that risotto presents a different intended outcome for rice, that it's somehow more al dente than in other rice dishes. I've never thought about it like that, because I do think inadequately cooked risotto will have a very starchy, hard almost inner core to the grain of rice, no doubt, but once it's actually tender, I don't think of it as being any more remarkable than, say, an exceptionally chewy short grain white rice.
SU: Really?
CM: Yeah.
SU: Isn't that the common thing with the risotto? That's what we learned in culinary school. You pull out a grain and then you squish it on the surface. Then it has to have that tiniest kernel of uncooked center and it's like the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
CM:What?
SU: When you smush it down, the very inside breaks into three pieces.
CM: Okay. This just got really liturgical, unexpectedly.
SU: Okay. I'm going to-
CM: No, you're probably entirely correct. What you're talking about is almost like the most gelatinous outer band of the kernel, the middle of the kernel, and then a very firm and dense inner core to the kernel.
SU: Yes.
CM: I don't think about it that way. I don't. People get insane about the perfect cook on a risotto. I think what the issue is for Ashna is the fact of just not using enough liquid.
SU: Okay, that's a good one. Yeah.
CM: I'm hearing stodgy risotto here, and the concept that I want to invoke here is alonda, like a wave.
SU: Okay.
CM: Risotto that moves, risotto that when you put it in your bowl, it flows slowly outward to fill the vessel it is in.
SU: Somewhere between soup and-
CM: It should be soupier than you think, and it takes a lot of liquid, like two cups of arborio or carnaroli or whatever rice you're using. You'd better be using risotto rice, so carnaroli, arborio or vialone nano, those are your three options. That's it. For two cups of those rices, you're using at least two quarts of stock, probably more like two and a half, I would wager, okay? Often, I'll go through quite a bit more stock than I even want to, and I have to supplement with hot water, which is ultimately fine, but you can't be skimpy with your liquids.
SU: Yeah, that makes sense.
CM: Otherwise, there's just not enough freely available water to impart itself into those grains of rice, and yes, you will have undercooked rice in there, but for me, risotto going slightly over is not as big an issue as being stodgy because there's just not enough liquid around it.
SU: Where do you fall on the risotto has to be stirred constantly arguments?
CM: Man. Okay, here's the deal. You've got two options. You cook it slow and it's a little bit worse, but you don't have to stir as much because you're not agitating the grains as much, and I think you have less clearly defined grains and more of a risotto porridge as opposed to true risotto.
SU: When you say slow, it's not boiling?
CM: Lower heat, longer.
SU: Okay, got it. Got it.
CM: I don't mind doing that, or you do high heat, higher heat, faster, but you are moving that risotto nearly continuously.
SU: The outcome is the same. It's just like-
CM: I think the outcome is similar. I'd say high heat faster is probably better in terms of a starchy matrix suspending perfectly cooked grains of rice, but man, you'd better be ready to move.
SU: I like that you said starchy matrix. I really think that's the point and crux of risotto.
CM: Yes.
SU: It's like making good pasta, where you're putting the pasta water back and stirring things just to mix everything together. I think the point of adding, to your point earlier about adding enough liquid, you have to add enough liquid to not just cook the rice, but also to release that starch and then have enough leftover for the starch to combine and make a sauce that coats everything and makes it glossy.
CM: The other thing that really finishes risotto, it's like a similar principle at work with regards to finishing a lot of pasta dishes is the mantecato or the thing that you put in at the end that binds it all together. Usually, that is butter and usually, that is cheese. The butter and cheese emulsifying into that starchy slurry of a liquid is where true magic happens. Just don't ignore that phase. I do want to shout out Jesse Szewczyk's Rice Cooker Risotto just as a complete wild card departure in terms of a different way to achieve this end. I was very impressed by the result of that risotto in terms of having a really nice balance of chewy and creamy.
SU: Yeah, I think that's a great example. I think that's a good risotto for someone like my mom who doesn't want the risotto to have any bite to it. That really is an excellent way to make risotto and it's hands off. It's easy to get there. That was a great recipe and Jesse puts peas and mint in there and really wakes everything up.
CM: I almost want to make risotto for your mom.
SU: She's coming in June, so I'll bring her up to the test kitchen.
CM: I feel like I want her to love it and I don't know why I feel the need for risotto validation for somebody I've never met, but it's okay for me not to like it that much because it's a bit of a pain to make, but it's really tasty.
SU: Yeah? Okay, I'll bring my mom around in June. I want to, when I think about Ashna speaking about her South Asian heritage, we do have a dish that's very similar to risotto in some ways, and it's called pongal, which is rice, short-grain rice, again, and lentils, and then you cook it. We cook it in a pressure cooker, but pongal in texture is very similar to risotto. It's that it's loose and fluid and it's the right of liquid and fat, so Ashna, perhaps good to reference pongal in the back of your mind when you think of risotto.
CM: I love that. Cool. All right, hope that helps. Shilpa, thank you for joining me to talk about asparagus and all the other things we're cooking this spring.
SU: Mostly asparagus.
CM: But mostly asparagus.
SU: Thanks, Chris. Always a joy.
CM: If you have a dinner emergency on your hands, write to us at podcasts@bonappetit.com or leave us a voice message at 212-286-SOS1. That's 212-286-7071. We'd love to feature your question on the show. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a rating and review on your podcast app of choice and hit that Follow button so you never miss an episode. You can find the recipes mentioned on today's episode linked in our show notes and on the Epicurious app, brought to you by Conde Nast. Just search Epicurious in the App Store and download today. If you're not yet a subscriber, you can sign up today for a 30-day free trial in the app or at bonappetit.com.
Thanks for listening to Dinner SOS. I'm your host, Chris Morocco. My cohost this week is Shilpa Uskokovic. Our senior producer is Michele O'Brien. Peyton Hayes is our associate producer. Research editing by Marissa Wolkenberg. Jake Lummus is our studio engineer. This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's Head of Global Audio.